He takes quotes from Cheney and Bush ("we will be greeted as liberators") and says "those were all John McCain's words".

100% lie.

Fucking liberal media.

Nope. Just a typical politician using association politics and lies.

This was just on. After hearing this did you put on your cape to leap to the computer to defend McCain?

While it is a pollitically motivated prevarication to offer "We will be greeted as liberators" as a direct McCain quote, I don't think it's %100 disingenuous, because most everyone who was beating the invasion drum were trumpeting similar ideas at the time.

In other words, McCain signed off on this shit, and while he came to take umbrage with the strategy, he never (at the outset) floated the idea that it might be a misguided venture to begin with.

This isn't a defense of McCain as much it letting the selective moral outrage types here know their boy is a straight up liar and just another typical politican trying to win an election.

It is a reasonable for one to say the war at it's inception was a mistake and Obama from day one has been steadfast in that position. However Obama has also correctly stated repeatedly that because a mistake was made we can't make another bad mistake and not bring the matter to the best resolution possible. This is where if he is honest to those sentiments.... it is he and Joe Biden who were on the wrong side of that question with their lack of support for the surge and saying it wouldn't work.

McCain was one of the first prominent Republicans to break ranks with the Bush Admin and called for the sacking of Rumsfeld and a new strategy. Obama obviously has to obfuscate those facts in order to win this election. I must admit he has done a pretty good job of it but I am steadfast in my belief that his triangulation on the matter will be exposed in the debates.

See, (to me) an election like this is more a referendum on who made the bad decision to begin with, and not so much who offers the best late-game solutions for the initial (tragic) mistake.

I'm not entirely thrilled with Obama, either.

But if we're going to have an honest debate about our invasion of Iraq, those who were against it from the git-go win all day/every day.

Pwn3d.

On the March 12, 2003, edition of MSNBC's Hardball, host Chris Matthews asked McCain: "Do you believe that the people of Iraq or at least a large number of them will treat us as liberators?" McCain answered: "Absolutely. Absolutely."

Immediately after the invasion, McCain again echoed Cheney's optimism:

On the March 24, 2003, edition of Hardball -- several days after the U.S.-led coalition had invaded Iraq -- McCain said: "There's no doubt in my mind that we will prevail and there's no doubt in my mind, once these people are gone, that we will be welcomed as liberators."

It is a reasonable position to want to hold the cheif responsible. But many moderates and conservatives remember full well it was official policy of the United States and signed off on by WJ Clinton that the regime in Iraq was to be changed. Americans remeber that leading up to the war polls showed as high as 80% were in support of it. Rember Joe "Gives Obama Judgement/Experience Cred" Biden voted a big fat YEA. So did John Kerry. So did Hillary Clinton. Meanwhile Obama's positions on Iraq since he became a US Senator running a national election, while delivered in a much more presidential and steadfast manner, are approaching the Karma Sutra level of John Kerry.

mods, can we change the thread title to "Obama quotes McCain accurately on 60 Minutes"?

What kind of elitist, sexist b.s. is that?

but i saw it the same way, mh
the repub party made everyone fearful and angry to the point of attacking a wrong person and wrong country and then went through a litany of reasons why we werent going after the perpetrators but just had to attack iraq instead

My bad. I was wrong. I was 100% certain it was Cheney who owned the liberators comment. I don't remember or never saw it backed up by McCain with such affirmation.

I am going to look at the transcript though from last night be cause there was another quote I can only remeber Bush/Cheney saying that they attributed to McCain. He might have affirmed that also. I wouldn't be surprised.

I'm ok with that as long as they take the time to fact check every single thread on the board.

We'll just start with yours. They take the most time anyway.

Hey MHav, this is how easy it is to fact check:

http://www.google.ie/search?q=McCain+greet...lient=firefox-a

And btw. McCain stuck by that and claimed we WERE greeted as liberators:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nY2EP6fj1Js

Even the ones in the music forum?

How about "A Brief History of a Right Wing Talking Point"

I was sure. I admitted I was wrong.

Anyway... in some circles we were greeted as liberators but it wasn't exactly like when the US troops rode in to Paris that is for sure.

Is music immune to selective moral outrage?

At least this time you've admitted that what you were sure was was in fact wrong.

It's a start.

Though you then backtrack and say that while you were wrong technically you were kinda right, so excuse me if I don't get my hopes up.

While a hit for the band, Night Ranger's patriotism was called into question for suggesting that there was a time when one could not rock in America.

'bout time we all agreed on something.

I was wrong about McCain never affirming the liberators statements. Some Iraqi's did feel the Americans were liberators. These are two wholly separate things and both statements are 100% factual.

How about some honesty from you Goaf?

Yes or no answer please. Has Obama in some instances mis-represented McCains positions or statements during this election on the stump and in ads? Yes or no.

Indeed but a couple quick spins of Sister Christian and all was forgiven.

Mostly you were wrong by stating that Obama lied about it.

Yes.

Has he repeatedly LIED THROUGH HIS TEETH about his opponent?

Nope.

Has he produced an add as horrendously stupid as the lipstick on a pig ad?

Not even close.

I'm not looking for perfection, but I won't settle for horrible.

As far as your "in some places" bullshit... sigh... does anyone think that that's what this idiots meant?

If it's not then you're lying.

It's like pretending that the Mission Accomplished banner was accurate, within certain closely defined guidelines.

Actually the Mission Accomplished rally and banner at the time was 100% accurate. The US troops did overthrow the regime and did an amazing job. Giving the troops credit for their work was the right thing to do. They did accomplish their mission as they were given it and more importantly trained for. Yet the Bush WH turned it in to a horrible political stunt and it rightfully became a defining moment of their abject failure for the next 4 years to transition the country and fully end the conflict against the enemies that emerged in the vaccum.

It's like pretending that the Mission Accomplished banner was accurate, within certain closely defined guidelines.

From that speech, which you claim is accurate:

"In the Battle of Iraq, the United States and our allies have prevailed."

"The liberation of Iraq is a crucial advance in the campaign against terror. We have removed an ally of al-Qaida, and cut off a source of terrorist funding."

Operation Iraq Freedom was declared over and Enduring Freedom began. 100% fact. Pretending that this distinction was made and that it wasn't made clear by the Bush WH that more dangerous work and fatalities were to come is an even greater distortion of the reality and truth of the situation.

Well, actually, it was.

At the same time that Bush gave the Mission Accomplished speech, Osama Bin Ladin accomplished his mission of getting US troops off Arabian soil.

"In the Battle of Iraq, the United States and our allies have prevailed."

The ONLY thing ever called "The Battle of Iraq" by ANYONE was the Iraq War... not Operation endless bullshit, not anything...

That quote is what he said...

"In the Battle of Iraq, the United States and our allies have prevailed."

http://www.google.ie/search?q=%22Battle+of...lient=firefox-a

Point goes to mhaverty, as it appears McCain never used the verb "greeted".


Ooooooooh man, you should've been here several years ago when conservative America was outraged, OUTRAGED, by the Dixie Chicks' anti-Bush comments delivered from a London stage.

Someone here (Mr. Cheese, maybe?) found a Dixie Chicks message board that had turned into an Anti-Dixie Chicks message board, on which most all of the posts were tirades against these contempo-country enemies of America. A few of us enjoyed posting over there for a few days. One of the stalwart righties there tracked my IP number to the university where I was matriculated/teaching at the time and threatened to have me thrown out of school for my anti-American online commentary. I was quite pleased to inform my nemesis that, in fact, I was teaching American history at the same school. I departed from the truth by presenting myself as a "critically engaged" scholar speaking truth to power about the nastiness of this great land of ours and inculcating my students with my own political views (which I said in order to remain true to rightie stereotype). Dude went apoplectic after that.

And, of course, a poster who claimed to be a USN commander (retired) threatened to murder Mr. Cheese.

Those were happier times.

Here's the text, you highlight where what you said above, was stated, he mentions the Name Operation Iraqi Freedom, but not Enduring Freedom.

Can you guess why?

Operation Enduring Freedom (OEF) is the official name used by the U.S. Government for its contribution to the War in Afghanistan, together with three smaller military actions, under the umbrella of its Global War on Terrorism (GWOT). The operation was originally called "Operation Infinite Justice", (often misquoted in news articles and political commentary as "Operation Ultimate Justice"[1]) but this phrase had previously been restricted to the description of God (among followers of several faiths), and it is believed to have been changed to avoid offense to Muslims.[2] On October 5, 2006, NATO officially took over control of U.S. forces in Afghanistan. [3]

The Operation comprises several subordinate operations:

1. Operation Enduring Freedom - Afghanistan (OEF-A)
2. Operation Enduring Freedom - Philippines (OEF-P) (formerly Operation Freedom Eagle)
3. Operation Enduring Freedom - Horn of Africa (OEF-HOA)
4. Operation Enduring Freedom - Trans Sahara (OEF-TS)[4]
5. Operation Enduring Freedom - Kyrgyzstan (completed in 2004)
6. Operation Enduring Freedom - Pankisi Gorge (completed in 2004)

So yeah, OEF has nothing to do with Iraq.

So much for "100% fact".

Let me suggest google again.

The speech:

(AP) Remarks by President Bush announcing the end of major combat operations in Iraq Thursday evening from the deck of the USS Abraham Lincoln:

Admiral Kelly, Captain Card, officers and sailors of the USS Abraham Lincoln, my fellow Americans: Major combat operations in Iraq have ended. In the Battle of Iraq, the United States and our allies have prevailed. And now our coalition is engaged in securing and reconstructing that country.

In this battle, we have fought for the cause of liberty, and for the peace of the world. Our nation and our coalition are proud of this accomplishment — yet it is you, the members of the United States military, who achieved it. Your courage — your willingness to face danger for your country and for each other — made this day possible. Because of you, our nation is more secure. Because of you, the tyrant has fallen, and Iraq is free.

Operation Iraqi Freedom was carried out with a combination of precision, and speed, and boldness the enemy did not expect, and the world had not seen before. From distant bases or ships at sea, we sent planes and missiles that could destroy an enemy division, or strike a single bunker. Marines and soldiers charged to Baghdad across 350 miles of hostile ground, in one of the swiftest advances of heavy arms in history. You have shown the world the skill and the might of the American Armed Forces.

This nation thanks all of the members of our coalition who joined in a noble cause. We thank the Armed Forces of the United Kingdom, Australia, and Poland, who shared in the hardships of war. We thank all of the citizens of Iraq who welcomed our troops and joined in the liberation of their own country. And tonight, I have a special word for Secretary (Donald) Rumsfeld, for General (Tommy) Franks, and for all the men and women who wear the uniform of the United States: America is grateful for a job well done.

The character of our military through history — the daring of Normandy, the fierce courage of Iwo Jima, the decency and idealism that turned enemies into allies — is fully present in this generation. When Iraqi civilians looked into the faces of our servicemen and women, they saw strength, and kindness, and good will. When I look at the members of the United States military, I see the best of our country, and I am honored to be your commander in chief.

In the images of fallen statues, we have witnessed the arrival of a new era. For a hundred years of war, culminating in the nuclear age, military technology was designed and deployed to inflict casualties on an ever-growing scale. In defeating Nazi Germany and imperial Japan, Allied Forces destroyed entire cities, while enemy leaders who started the conflict were safe until the final days. Military power was used to end a regime by breaking a nation. Today, we have the greater power to free a nation by breaking a dangerous and aggressive regime. With new tactics and precision weapons, we can achieve military objectives without directing violence against civilians. No device of man can remove the tragedy from war. Yet it is a great advance when the guilty have far more to fear from war than the innocent.

In the images of celebrating Iraqis, we have also seen the ageless appeal of human freedom. Decades of lies and intimidation could not make the Iraqi people love their oppressors or desire their own enslavement. Men and women in every culture need liberty like they need food, and water, and air. Everywhere that freedom arrives, humanity rejoices. And everywhere that freedom stirs, let tyrants fear.

We have difficult work to do in Iraq. We are bringing order to parts of that country that remain dangerous. We are pursuing and finding leaders of the old regime, who will be held to account for their crimes. We have begun the search for hidden chemical and biological weapons, and already know of hundreds of sites that will be investigated. We are helping to rebuild Iraq, where the dictator built palaces for himself, instead of hospitals and schools. And we will stand with the new leaders of Iraq as they establish a government of, by, and for the Iraqi people. The transition from dictatorship to democracy will take time, but it is worth every effort. Our coalition will stay until our work is done. And then we will leave — and we will leave behind a free Iraq.

The Battle of Iraq is one victory in a war on terror that began on September the 11th, 2001, and still goes on. That terrible morning, 19 evil men — the shock troops of a hateful ideology — gave America and the civilized world a glimpse of their ambitions. They imagined, in the words of one terrorist, that September the 11th would be the "beginning of the end of America." By seeking to turn our cities into killing fields, terrorists and their allies believed that they could destroy this nation's resolve, and force our retreat from the world. They have failed.

In the Battle of Afghanistan, we destroyed the Taliban, many terrorists, and the camps where they trained. We continue to help the Afghan people lay roads, restore hospitals, and educate all of their children. Yet we also have dangerous work to complete. As I speak, a special operations task force, led by the 82nd Airborne, is on the trail of the terrorists, and those who seek to undermine the free government of Afghanistan. America and our coalition will finish what we have begun.

From Pakistan to the Philippines to the Horn of Africa, we are hunting down al-Qaida killers. Nineteen months ago, I pledged that the terrorists would not escape the patient justice of the United States. And as of tonight, nearly one-half of al-Qaida's senior operatives have been captured or killed.

The liberation of Iraq is a crucial advance in the campaign against terror. We have removed an ally of al-Qaida, and cut off a source of terrorist funding. And this much is certain: No terrorist network will gain weapons of mass destruction from the Iraqi regime, because the regime is no more.

In these 19 months that changed the world, our actions have been focused, and deliberate, and proportionate to the offense. We have not forgotten the victims of September the 11th — the last phone calls, the cold murder of children, the searches in the rubble. With those attacks, the terrorists and their supporters declared war on the United States. And war is what they got.

Our war against terror is proceeding according to principles that I have made clear to all:

Any person involved in committing or planning terrorist attacks against the American people becomes an enemy of this country, and a target of American justice.

Any person, organization, or government that supports, protects, or harbors terrorists is complicit in the murder of the innocent, and equally guilty of terrorist crimes.

Any outlaw regime that has ties to terrorist groups, and seeks or possesses weapons of mass destruction, is a grave danger to the civilized world, and will be confronted.

And anyone in the world, including the Arab world, who works and sacrifices for freedom has a loyal friend in the United States of America.

Our commitment to liberty is America's tradition — declared at our founding, affirmed in Franklin Roosevelt's Four Freedoms, asserted in the Truman Doctrine, and in Ronald Reagan's challenge to an evil empire. We are committed to freedom in Afghanistan, in Iraq, and in a peaceful Palestine. The advance of freedom is the surest strategy to undermine the appeal of terror in the world. Where freedom takes hold, hatred gives way to hope. When freedom takes hold, men and women turn to the peaceful pursuit of a better life. American values, and American interests, lead in the same direction: We stand for human liberty.

The United States upholds these principles of security and freedom in many ways — with all the tools of diplomacy, law enforcement, intelligence, and finance. We are working with a broad coalition of nations that understand the threat, and our shared responsibility to meet it. The use of force has been, and remains, our last resort. Yet all can know, friend and foe alike, that our nation has a mission: We will answer threats to our security, and we will defend the peace.

Our mission continues. Al-Qaida is wounded, not destroyed. The scattered cells of the terrorist network still operate in many nations, and we know from daily intelligence that they continue to plot against free people. The proliferation of deadly weapons remains a serious danger. The enemies of freedom are not idle, and neither are we. Our government has taken unprecedented measures to defend the homeland — and we will continue to hunt down the enemy before he can strike.

The war on terror is not over, yet it is not endless. We do not know the day of final victory, but we have seen the turning of the tide. No act of the terrorists will change our purpose, or weaken our resolve, or alter their fate. Their cause is lost. Free nations will press on to victory.

Other nations in history have fought in foreign lands and remained to occupy and exploit. Americans, following a battle, want nothing more than to return home. And that is your direction tonight. After service in the Afghan and Iraqi theaters of war — after 100,000 miles, on the longest carrier deployment in recent history — you are homeward bound. Some of you will see new family members for the first time — 150 babies were born while their fathers were on the Lincoln. Your families are proud of you, and your nation will welcome you.

We are mindful as well that some good men and women are not making the journey home. One of those who fell, Corporal Jason Mileo, spoke to his parents five days before his death. Jason's father said, "He called us from the center of Baghdad, not to brag, but to tell us he loved us. Our son was a soldier." Every name, every life, is a loss to our military, to our nation, and to the loved ones who grieve. There is no homecoming for these families. Yet we pray, in God's time, their reunion will come.

Those we lost were last seen on duty. Their final act on this earth was to fight a great evil, and bring liberty to others. All of you — all in this generation of our military — have taken up the highest calling of history. You are defending your country, and protecting the innocent from harm. And wherever you go, you carry a message of hope — a message that is ancient, and ever new. In the words of the prophet Isaiah: "To the captives, 'Come out!' and to those in darkness, 'Be free!"'

Thank you for serving our country and our cause. May God bless you all, and may God continue to bless America.

Hey, give mhaverty a break. He can check the accuracy of his facts or his spelling, but not both at once.

You know exactly what I was trying to say with the change in operations. The point is still 100% valid. Bush made it clear there was now a change in strategy and operation in Iraq.

From your own post:

Remarks by President Bush announcing the end of major combat operations We know now in hindsight that there was still plenty of combat to be had in Iraq and the Rumsfield/Casey plan of operation was to be an abject failure.

The war on terror is not over, yet it is not endless.

We have difficult work to do in Iraq. We are bringing order to parts of that country that remain dangerous. We are pursuing and finding leaders of the old regime, who will be held to account for their crimes.

Yet we also have dangerous work to complete.

Thanks for proving my point though. Bush did make it clear there was much more work and danger ahead.

I really wish I was around for this.


I miss the days of people being tragically defensive about Bush

You have an amazing ability (bordering on being an idiot savant) to package a bunch of wholly separate statements about a variety of different issues and package them into a big feed bag of self serving bullshit that ignores anything and everything contradictory or not in line with your assertions. The irony is that in most of your self-congratulatory zingers you yourself at one point have fallen victim to the concept that is the subject of your indignation. For example you the last few week have been "tragically defensive" about Obama.

It's really cute how angry you get when people don't take your message boarding seriously.

Congratulations you managed to respond with two classic VerminTorisms in one sentence! Awesome. If you could only have worked "gut" in you would have had a trifecta.

You should work on being funny sometime. I like to clown on you because you're so self-satisfied and serious.

Stay angry pony boy.

What a coincidence. I got this message in a fortune cookie on Friday.

There is the third! You are on a roll today.

Lets recap the VerminTorisms:

1. You are angry
2. You take the internet too seriously
3. You take yourself too seriously

You are like Jim Cramer from Mad Money but you don't have quite the large array of canned response buttons to push and of course do not have the sound effects or graphics. Vermin will at least retread some photos run through adobe with catch phrases.

Angry!

Please respond to the rest of my e-mails with cut and pastes of opinion articles on how you aren't a crazy little man.

VerminTorism #4.

Say that everything is a Cut and Paste.

You are on a roll baby!!!! Keep up the good work.

One day you'll come up with a joke or won't be such a blowhard.

That will be a good day. Please get the job done.

I get the job done all day amusing myself at your expense. If you can't find the humor in that I can easily understand why.

Literacy is the best policy.

So when several people INDEPENDENTLY start calling you out on the same exact shit, day after day, at what point do you realize that there might be something to what they are saying about you?

I love how you capitalize INDEPENDENTLY. Angry? This is some good logic though. The kind you call people out on constantly. So if several people say the same thing over and over suddenly the assertion has credence? Esp. if those several people consistently trip over each-others dicks to come up with a newer and better regurgitation of the same thought or statement over and over again?

This argument holds as much weight as 3 different guys at hemp fest saying there is a old market conspiracy against hemp that dates back to the days of cotton barons. If it isn't cut and paste its "fox news". If it isn't fox news it is "knee jerk defense". If it isn't knee jerk defence it is "talking points". Blah blah blah. The same old shit from the same old people who are too lazy or too reactionary to engage in any reasonable discussion.

Like I said to Tor earlier... it is comical how boring and repetitive it is that you guys consistently mock people for being boring or repetitive. Even funnier is how you stroke each-other afterwards. I can picture you guys sprawled out on the floor between computers with smoke lingering in the air among the sent of lube, packed fudge, and latex.