Robbie Roberston's Last Waltz DVD audio commentry, I was watching it last night and... Options

[Charlemagne]

Formerly poor kids drinking "classy" beverages, which I guess Remy was/is considered in the UK as opposed to gin. Not unlike the popularity of Heineken and cognac among rap kids in present day America.

Very good point (and comparison). I think it is kind of funny that during The Who's 1982 tour, John Entwistle had Remy Martin in those two "water" bottles that were attached to his microphone. Remy, cocaine and cigarettes...who knew that Entwistle shared so much in common with today's rappers.

[EricDoberman]

Very good point (and comparison). I think it is kind of funny that during The Who's 1982 tour, John Entwistle had Remy Martin in those two "water" bottles that were attached to his microphone. Remy, cocaine and cigarettes...who knew that Entwistle shared so much in common with today's rappers.

Well "My Wife" mentions machine guns and you also have the toughguy posturing of "The Quiet One".

[Charlemagne]

Well "My Wife" mentions machine guns and you also have the toughguy posturing of "The Quiet One".

Also, he did have a love for tacky/gaudy clothes, wearing jewlrey, collecting way too much stuff (weapons included), having a lot of cars that he never drove, floozy coked-up girlfriends and shooting guns on his big estate.

[stoneylarsen]

The Wembley footage is so funny - Rick looks like a kid having a blast whereas I think Robbie is thinking about his stock portfolio.

Stoneylarsen...this one made me laugh. Yes, Rick had a certain "golly gee wiz" innocence about the way he carried himself (even when he was certainly not innocent of anything). I loved the weird body movements he would make while playing the bass (I'm thinking in particular of his jerky arm movements during the soundstage segment of "The Weight" with The Staple Singers). I just think those interview segments with Rick and Richard are the best part of the Last Waltz. They are so stoned and goofy. Rick reminds me of Dee Dee Ramone in that sense. Great stuff.

Indeed...same with the soundstage footage goes Richard playing the drums while hitting the hi-hat with his arm raised way, way up...funny stuff, and yes, goofy.

As for Richard being stoned...I like when Ronnie Hawkins takes the stage and stops off at Richard's piano only to throw back whatever Richard was drinkin'...Richard just sits there and laughs with what looks like this this steady "heh-heh-heh-heh-heh". He takes the laugh up again when Hawkins leaves the stage, shifting to the side this time, and very obviously in a booze haze. However, Richard looks like he is having a good time, save for that heartbreakingly sad, long-forlorn face he makes when they drop the spotlight on him right before he starts singing during "The Shape I'm In"...

I won't even go into the couch interview sessions - Jeffrey Simmons had some amazing observations about that, but sadly I can't remember them now.

[stoneylarsen]

In later years he ditched the Lowery in favor of a synth type keyboard which was a shame and his sound never was as good. Still, he is a master musician and his sax playing is pretty amazing too.

I agree with you there - the tapes I have of the 1976 tour suffer from this - but I will say the organ work he did when backing Bob Dylan 1965-67 and again in 1974 was simply sick.

The Bob Dylan & The Hawks recordings are so fucking punk rock - crazy stuff, especially when they got that big dude from Texas drumming for him because he played so ahead of the beat as opposed to Levon who played so behind. Crazy results - so chaotic and simply rock and roll at its finest. Though it was all so methamphetamine driven - if you've seen the footage in Eat The Document (whose opening shot is Richard doing a line of speed) and No Direction Home and take one look at Bob's pencil-thin demeanor and buzzed eyes you know what I mean - nonetheless it's great stuff. I certainly think The Band did its best work on booze, speed, and marijuana (The Basement Tapes), as opposed to smack and coke. Wait...this is starting to sound like that Rolling Stones thread...

[Charlemagne]

Indeed...same with the soundstage footage goes Richard playing the drums while hitting the hi-hat with his arm raised way, way up...funny stuff, and yes, goofy.

As for Richard being stoned...I like when Ronnie Hawkins takes the stage and stops off at Richard's piano only to throw back whatever Richard was drinkin'...Richard just sits there and laughs with what looks like this this steady "heh-heh-heh-heh-heh". He takes the laugh up again when Hawkins leaves the stage, shifting to the side this time, and very obviously in a booze haze. However, Richard looks like he is having a good time, save for that heartbreakingly sad, long-forlorn face he makes when they drop the spotlight on him right before he starts singing during "The Shape I'm In"...

I won't even go into the couch interview sessions - Jeffrey Simmons had some amazing observations about that, but sadly I can't remember them now.

Another funny interview segment is the one in the kitchen. Robbie is hoggin' up all the camera time as he pontificates about the Sonny Boy jam session story but as he is doing it Rick makes these drunken comments in that Jeff Spicoli voice of his "we were wiped out man".

[Blodwyn]

This is such an interesting thread. I don't have anything to add but it has made my afternoon stuck here at work so much more enjoyable. Thanks!

[Charlemagne]

I agree with you there - the tapes I have of the 1976 tour suffer from this - but I will say the organ work he did when backing Bob Dylan 1965-67 and again in 1974 was simply sick.

The Bob Dylan & The Hawks recordings are so fucking punk rock - crazy stuff, especially when they got that big dude from Texas drumming for him because he played so ahead of the beat as opposed to Levon who played so behind. Crazy results - so chaotic and simply rock and roll at its finest. Though it was all so methamphetamine driven - if you've seen the footage in Eat The Document (whose opening shot is Richard doing a line of speed) and No Direction Home and take one look at Bob's pencil-thin demeanor and buzzed eyes you know what I mean - nonetheless it's great stuff. I certainly think The Band did its best work on booze, speed, and marijuana (The Basement Tapes), as opposed to smack and coke. Wait...this is starting to sound like that Rolling Stones thread...

That Texas drummer was Mickey Jones. He had played with Johnny Rivers (Secret Agent Man) and others. Dylan really liked his drumming and after Levon left in late 65 Jones was brought in (although I read they also used other drummers too but I have seen photos). Mickey Jones is unfairly maligned in the Barney Hoskyn's Band book. I think his drumming gave the sound some good rock n' roll stomp. Levon is great but maybe Mickey Jones' drumming better reflected the drugs they were taking. Mickey Jones is an actor now and was a cast member on the television sitcom "Home Improvement".

[Charlemagne]

Hey Stoneylarsen....just want to say you had some great posts about The Band. I hope you keep this thread going a bit longer.

[stoneylarsen]

Hey Stoneylarsen....just want to say you had some great posts about The Band. I hope you keep this thread going a bit longer.

Cheers folks! I will probably go further tomorrow (the wife is going to bed and the computer is in the bedroom) but I did want to mention that the Levon & The Hawks stuff is really worth hearing if none of you have not heard it already. The A Musical History box set has a good deal of it - and it is all quite cool, especially "Uh Uh Uh", "Bacon Fat", "Honky Tonk", and "The Stones That I Throw" (there's also a cool hotel room demo of a song called "I Want To Be The Rainmaker" with Rick singing a very precious lead, plus Richard doing a brief but incredibly soulful "The Stones That I Throw" at the same session). Several live recordings of Levon & The Hawks circulate, all from 1964-65 (two from Toronto, one from Dallas, one from Oklahoma City), and I've gotta say while Richard Manuel doing "Georgia" is always awesome, you really haven't lived until you've heard Rick Danko sing "Twist & Shout".

One thing I would like to open up for discussion - Robbie's lyrics. While I like and can dig the folky psychedelic weirdness of stuff like "Yazoo Street Scandal", "Ferdinand The Imposter" and "Chest Fever", I frankly think the words to "The Weight" are dreadful. Robbie got better with time - much of his lyrical work on Cahoots is superb (especially "Smoke Signal", "4% Pantomime", "Life Is A Carnival" and "Volcano") - I still think he is way overrated as an overall songwriter. But we'll get to this...sleep on it, let me know what you all think.

Cheers again for the very kind words. This, the Fleetwood Mac, and Rolling Stones threads have all been a hell of a lot of fun.

[idjit]

To get back to the original post here - Robbie Robertson seemed liked a domineering prick throughout that movie. I'm a big fan of the Band, but Robbie's interviews in The Last Waltz made it seem as if he was "the guy" that made it all happen. Like, "hey Robbie......it's THE BAND.....get it?" Another thing that really irked me was how he "orchestrated" everything onstage (and on camera,) with hand gestures and flourishes, as if these guys hadn't been slogging it out with these songs for years. Other than his whole prima donna thing, it's a great documentary.<p>Another thing about this film though - the music has been heavily, and pretty obviously overdubbed, after the fact. The most obvious example that I can think of right now, (and I haven't watched it for a while,) is Danko's bass playing on the Clapton song. (Further On Up the Road I think.) The soundtrack has the bass part walking all over the place - the film has Rick hammering on the root note! There was a lot of talk about airbrushing Neil's "coke nose" but I think a lot of bad notes got "airbushed" too!

[stoneylarsen]

To get back to the original post here - Robbie Robertson seemed liked a domineering prick throughout that movie. I'm a big fan of the Band, but Robbie's interviews in The Last Waltz made it seem as if he was "the guy" that made it all happen. Like, "hey Robbie......it's THE BAND.....get it?" Another thing that really irked me was how he "orchestrated" everything onstage (and on camera,) with hand gestures and flourishes, as if these guys hadn't been slogging it out with these songs for years. Other than his whole prima donna thing, it's a great documentary.

James Apt pointed out to me long ago that Robbie's mic seems to be turned off - you can see Robbie shouting and screaming (a lot at Levon) through much of the film (particularly during "The Shape I'm In") and you certainly can't hear it (except very vaguely through someone else's mic - probably Rick's). Also, his obviously out of touch yodeling backing vocals on "Up On Cripple Creek" aren't there either - probably wiped during the overdubbing process since Robbie was notoriously not a very good singer (despite the double tracking on "To Kingdom Come" he still sounds cracked and strained) - since his mouth is making movements that aren't repliated on the soundtrack (akin to what you pointed out about Rick's bass playing on "Further Up the Road").

The album notes that some additional recording was done at The Village Recorder and Shangri-La...

And the only reason Neil Diamond was there was because Robbie produced Beautiful Noise. Talk about an album plug...sheesh...Robbie must have been making points there...at least Rick got to talk about his solo album a little bit.

[stoneylarsen]

I did want to mention that the Levon & The Hawks stuff is really worth hearing if none of you have not heard it already. The A Musical History box set has a good deal of it - and it is all quite cool, especially "Uh Uh Uh", "Bacon Fat", "Honky Tonk", and "The Stones That I Throw".

"He Don't Love You" is good too - great shotgun drumming from Levon plus Richard doing his full on Ray Charles bit.

Another bit in the film about Richard: in the kitchen scene where they're talking about women on the road and Richard, very disheveled and obviously well gone by this point (this scene was apparently shot at some absurd time in the early morning, which is why I think Richard and Rick are so tweaked - they've obviously been up all night), says that bit about "I love 'em..." Then he says, to paraphrase, "because that's why we've been on the road" and then he gets the most heartbreakingly sad look on his face - he literally looks like he's about to cry - as Robbie puts a hand on his shoulder and then the camera cuts to another member. My theory on this is because the Band had stopped touring by this point, and I actually believe (one of the books says something to this effect) that this footage from Shangri-La was actually filmed after the Winterland show while the group were mixing/overdubbing the live stuff, "working" on Islands, and other stuff (like Rick's solo album). I don't think Richard was looking forward to the future much at this point, though, like it was brought up earlier, he actually cleaned up not too long after this.

That's show business...

[allogist]

Fantastic thread. I agree that Robertson's commentary on the Last Waltz DVD goes heavy on the filmaking and coke-buddy-with-Scorsese aspects and light on the band/musical side. To his credit however, his segments on the "Classic Albums" show where he listens and comments on individual isolated tracks while at the console do show a more appreciative band member. He really becomes animated when discussing Garth's clavinet/jew's harp keyboard part on "Cripple Creek".

[John D]

Very good point (and comparison). I think it is kind of funny that during The Who's 1982 tour, John Entwistle had Remy Martin in those two "water" bottles that were attached to his microphone. Remy, cocaine and cigarettes...who knew that Entwistle shared so much in common with today's rappers.

Ah yes, the cycling bottles. John always kept brandy in one, white wine in the other (supposedly for "the throat").

Great thread BTW. Danko is one of my bass guitar heros and a genius vocalist.

[Muso]

but that story in rock and roll is endless as there are so many other folks like that, Gene Clark among them, as well as Blondie Chaplin, Bruce Foxton, Steve Diggle, etc and so forth.

I wouldn't pick the last three as especally tragic stories-- Chaplin's a journeyman who never seemed to hurt for a gig, Diggle's still part of a band everybody loves, and Foxton I'm sure can always get a gig playing bass. Except for a couple of Diggle's I wouldn't say any of them wrote anythng to match what Gene Clark did.

Now, Glenn Tilbrook playing Harpers Ferry? That's a sad one.

[stoneylarsen]

The Band to me is very interesting because I didn't always like them. My wife, for example, can't stand them, but she doesn't like Dylan either - I listen to them when she's not around. What The Band has, and what was magical about them, is contained soley within the group. It is not explainable, but the group had a certain something which is hard to put one's finger on. I think part of what bothers some of us about The Last Waltz is that Band had no true leader, and in fact following their break with Ronnie Hawkins, Levon was the group's leader (hence "Levon & The Hawks", partially done because Levon had been in The Hawks the longest) with Richard doing most of the vocals. I think it was when the drugs and booze started flowing, and Robbie also being lauded by the critics as a genius, that the problems started. Robbie was perhaps the most straight-laced of the group next to Garth, and probably took charge a la Paul McCartney circa Get Back/Let It Be to keep things running as Richard and Rick's boozing and drugging increased, not to mention Levon's heroin addiction (thoiugh I think he kicked it following Cahoots, which was probably why he increasingly got pissed at Robbie). I do think, though, that Richard was arguably a better songwriter than Robbie, but by the time of Stage Fright Richard pretty much gave up songwriting. The reasons for him doing this abound, but no one seems certain just why.

I haven't read Levon's book, so I don't know how much detail or opinion he goes into. What's odd too about Robbie and Levon is both of them had acting careers (Robbie's much briefer than Levon's, who still acts) following The Band's breakup, so maybe there was some sort of competition there as well. Who knows, though...

[stoneylarsen]

I wouldn't pick the last three as especally tragic stories-- Chaplin's a journeyman who never seemed to hurt for a gig, Diggle's still part of a band everybody loves, and Foxton I'm sure can always get a gig playing bass. Except for a couple of Diggle's I wouldn't say any of them wrote anythng to match what Gene Clark did.

Now, Glenn Tilbrook playing Harpers Ferry? That's a sad one.

Hey Muso I was hoping you'd throw in!

Chaplin I know isn't tragic, but I always felt he should have been a lot more famous in his own right than he actually is. I mean, my God, what a voice!

As an aside, Foxton's played with Stiff Little Fingers longer than he ever had with The Jam!

[Muso]

From what we've come to know about Robbie--- and especially fromhis solo output--it just boggles themind that he wrote what he did.

I really enjoyed the three post-Robbie Band albums. SOngwriting was spotty and it was more bar band-ish, but a lot of the sprit and the sound was there. (Kinda like post-Lowell Little Feat, which I also think is underrated).

[Muso]

I saw Robbie at his SxSW keynote a few years ago, and hebasically came off like everyone says-- reminded me of Paul Shaffer's imitation of Don Kirshner. The total antithesis of everything presented in his songs.

People asked him a lot of fawning questions. I just asked fordetails on how Tiny Tim got to be on the Basement Tapes.

[stoneylarsen]

People asked him a lot of fawning questions. I just asked fordetails on how Tiny Tim got to be on the Basement Tapes.

I know those recordings were for You Are What You Eat, Peter Yarrow of Peter Paul & Mary's 1968 film. Where the connections lie, though, I dunno...

Here's the write up from the Dutch Band site.

[Muso]

I know those recordings were for You Are What You Eat, Peter Yarrow of Peter Paul & Mary's 1968 film. Where the connections lie, though, I dunno...

Robertson didnt mention the film, but he said Tiny Tim was just a character evrybody knew. He askd the Band to back him up on those songs ("Be My Baby," etc) as a gift to his mom!!

In less sober moments I've said they were the only truly timeless part of the basement tapes.

[Brad Radkins]

The only member of the Band that ever made any money, and continues to make money, is Robbie Robertson. On paper, he's the only member of the Band that actually exists. Look at the songwriting credits.

Two schools of thought on this: Screw him for having his head on straight when others around him didn't, he deserves his success, or screw him because he betrayed his best friends in the world, claiming their hard work as his own and reaping the financial rewards, and then closing down the company when HE felt like it.

Every other member of the Band had and has a right to be bitter about the whole experience.

Anyhow, Robertson made a great contribution to 20th century music with the Band, both with his guitar playing and songwriting. But on some level, he's doomed. He'll always be thought of as a fraud to some degree, which is rather unfortunate.

The Last Waltz is really really sad, because the only guy that clearly wants it to end is Robbie. You can see it in the film when he and Rick are wasted playing "Ol' Time Religion," something they probably did every night for 15 years, sitting around, drinking, playing music.

[Charlemagne]

James Apt pointed out to me long ago that Robbie's mic seems to be turned off - you can see Robbie shouting and screaming (a lot at Levon) through much of the film (particularly during "The Shape I'm In") and you certainly can't hear it (except very vaguely through someone else's mic - probably Rick's). Also, his obviously out of touch yodeling backing vocals on "Up On Cripple Creek" aren't there either - probably wiped during the overdubbing process since Robbie was notoriously not a very good singer (despite the double tracking on "To Kingdom Come" he still sounds cracked and strained) - since his mouth is making movements that aren't repliated on the soundtrack (akin to what you pointed out about Rick's bass playing on "Further Up the Road").

The album notes that some additional recording was done at The Village Recorder and Shangri-La...

And the only reason Neil Diamond was there was because Robbie produced Beautiful Noise. Talk about an album plug...sheesh...Robbie must have been making points there...at least Rick got to talk about his solo album a little bit.

I love "To Kingdom Come" such a quirky tune. That along with "In A Station" show they were more than just rootsy in their early days. Anyway, Robbie does a great solo version of "Twilight" on the "Musical History" box set (which you mentioned you own). I think it was done at the time and it must have been an early demo as it is just Robbie and a piano. Sound kind of like Tom Waits to me. I think it is an incredible version and it should have been released at the time.

[drumdad]

This is a great, great thread.

Levon Helm has got to be one of my favorite drummers, ever. His feel, his flourishes and fills, it's all incredible. He's one of those players whose sound is instantly recognizable. Whenever I hear Levon playing I know it's him. There aren't a huge number of drummers that you can say that about on such a consistent basis. Bonham. Moon. Watts. Some others.

I've never heard the Robbie commentary on the DVD, and from the sounds of it I don't want to.