Religion, let's have a constructive discussion Options

[Danny Vermin]

I don't really believe in God, and certainly not in any man-made religion.

I don't really have a problem with people who do believe, or are religious, unless they are extremely vocal about it and want to convert me or discuss their religion with me when I've already made it clear to them that I'm not interested.

I think most people use it as an escape clause for their own bad behavior. "If I pray hard enough and really mean it, God will forgive me if for this horrible shit I'm about to do." It's a fear tactic. Happiness and Joy, as well as pain and suffering, exist for every living thing with or without ever know anything about God or religion.

I also find that on average, the people who tend to be vocal about their subscribing to the "tolerant" religions - Christianity, Judaism, etc. where forgiveness is supposed to be a Paramount theme of their belief, tend to be the most overbearing, obnoxious, judgmental, holier-than-thou people on the planet.

Therefore, If this kind of God does exist as described by those who shout his praises from on high - apparently his closest friends are most of the biggest pricks on the planet. That's not the kind of guy I wanna hang out with.

[Truth be known]

Some great views here...

This pretty much sums it all up for me:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=MeSSwKffj9o

[mhaverty]

My completely scientific examination of the existence of God.

It is commonly accepted that God allows suffering in the world because without evil/sadness/pain/despair we would never understand good/happiness/pleasure/ecstasy. I, however, disagree. What defines the Judo-Christian God is that he is an all powerful being. He is limitless in his power. If this is so, why did he fail to provide/create a scenario in which good/happiness/pleasure/ecstasy could be experienced without the pitfall of having to experience the dark flip-side of those feelings. Certainly, an all powerful creator would be able to figure out a way around this catch-22, even if the solution is outside of human imagination.

Put into context with the "why does suffering exist" conundrum, we are logically led to the following conclusions...

1. God is not all powerful, and therefore fails to live up to the Judo-Christian definition of "God." In this scenario, there is no reason to worship him.

2. God is capable of short-cutting the "why does suffering exist" conundrum, but chooses not to. This means that God is an asshole and is not worthy of being worshiped.

3. There is no God.

I am neither a philosopher nor a theologian, just a guy that sees all the horrible things that happen to people in this world, and all the horrible things that people are capable of doing to each other and fails to find any shred of hope that there is anything at all mystical about our existence.

100% correct. Just don't tell my wife this.

[Orbitron]

I am neither a philosopher nor a theologian,

That was painfully obvious from your post.

[Danny Vermin]

That was painfully obvious from your post.

Not really.

I tend to find the giant piles of bullshit one needs to wade through in order to stomach most writings by most purported theologians and philosophers to be both Painful and Obvious.

I also tend to look at people who think they "get it" when reading this crapola to be no different than clueless people who mumble-sing the wrong words to popular songs on the radio and think they know what they're saying.

[Orbitron]

Not really.

I tend to find the giant piles of bullshit one needs to wade through in order to stomach most writings by most purported theologians and philosophers to be both Painful and Obvious.

I also tend to look at people who think they "get it" when reading this crapola to be no different than clueless people who mumble-sing the wrong words to popular songs on the radio and think they know what they're saying.

Yeah, you're another deep thinker, Vermin.

[His Daddy]

I said 'effected by their religious beliefs', not 'dictated to them by an old guy in a funny hat'. I'm against the death penalty partly because I believe life is sacred. Is my opinion any less valid as a result?

Yes.

[AckAckAckAck]

I don't really have a problem with people who do believe, or are religious, unless they are extremely vocal about it and want to convert me or discuss their religion with me when I've already made it clear to them that I'm not interested.

wingo, little buddy.

i dunno, people have different reason for having faith. i've thought about it at length due to my upbringing (roman catholic to the max). but really, if they don't try to make it my business then who gives a shit?

[Danny Vermin]

Yeah, you're another deep thinker, Vermin.

And you have it all figured out, right?

[Orbitron]

And you have it all figured out, right?

Nah,and I don't pretend to, unlike those who post some sophomoric crap about "bad things happen so there cannot be a god", or make wide-flung generalizations about huge swaths of the population.

[Danny Vermin]

Nah,and I don't pretend to, unlike those who post some sophomoric crap about "bad things happen so there cannot be a god", or make wide-flung generalizations about huge swaths of the population.

And most contemporary organized religions AREN'T rule-based fear tactics that hinge on wide flung generalizations about huge swaths of the population?

Now that's funny.

Believing in fairy-tale laden, patronizing crap past the age of 9 is sophomoric.

[Lollipop]

Believing in fairy-tale laden, patronizing crap past the age of 9 is sophomoric.

Oh my buddha, i agree with Vermin.
what can this mean?!

[hobot]

Nah,and I don't pretend to, unlike those who post some sophomoric crap about "bad things happen so there cannot be a god", or make wide-flung generalizations about huge swaths of the population.

I think the sentiment is more "bad things happen, so if there is an omnipotent being, it is a twisted son of a bitch and does not deserve any praise or worship".

[Orbitron]

I think the sentiment is more "bad things happen, so if there is an omnipotent being, it is a twisted son of a bitch and does not deserve any praise or worship".

Oh, yeah, gee, I never heard that bit before either.

Humans have been wrestling with the question of free-will and God since written language. It's nice to see the Noiseboard has figured it all out. You guys should slap yourselves on the back some more.

[hobot]

Oh, yeah, gee, I never heard that bit before either.

Humans have been wrestling with the question of free-will and God since written language. It's nice to see the Noiseboard has figured it all out. You guys should slap yourselves on the back some more.

How is this any different than claiming that the bible is true, or any other religion for that matter? Isn't it simply a matter of personal belief? But somehow you find this belief more distasteful than others?

Sorry, I'm just confused as to your extreme animosity towards this one belief that some people hold, animosity you seem to lack concerning other people's beliefs.

[Danny Vermin]

Oh, yeah, gee, I never heard that bit before either.

Humans have been wrestling with the question of free-will and God since written language. It's nice to see the Noiseboard has figured it all out. You guys should slap yourselves on the back some more.

For someone who thinks they are above the sentiments being made in this thread, you certainly smack of smug and ridiculous.

[JodyThePig]

I was at a Catholic mass this morning and I had no idea what was going on.

If I'd been in a chemist's lab this morning instead, I would've had no idea what was going on.

Religion and Science: Both Bunk.

[Truth be known]

My approach to Religion comes more from my scientific background than anything else. I tend to try to explain things pragmatically, looking for evidence that will corroborate a story or claim. I spent alot of time in Peru for schooling...studying pre-Columbian cultures. Across the board, Religion has always been about 2 things...explanation and control. Since modern man, people have concocted elaborate creationism stories in order to justify their existence here on earth. Many of them, a very localized explanation...meaning that their daily lives and landscape were part of the creationism stories.

Egyptian gods came from the Nile
Mayan gods were serpents who created man
Native Americans were heavily tied to animal spirituality

Christianity was really the first Religion that was cast for EVERYONE to follow...easily allowing the crusades and all the other atrocities to be carried out in the name of it. The only reason that it is widespread today is because of violence, fear, and oppression...something that the Church just doesn't acknowledge...funny huh? It was all about love in the beginning and really not about conformity, strict adherence, and complete devotion, right?

[Danny Vermin]

I was at a Catholic mass this morning and I had no idea what was going on.

If I'd been in a chemist's lab this morning instead, I would've had no idea what was going on.

Religion and Science: Both Bunk.

No one on earth has ever willed a vehicle into space and landed on the moon, or launched a satellite using religion.

No one has ever successfully completely an appendectomy surgery using a Koran and prayer.

God didn't invent the Atomic Bomb, Oppenheimer did.

Science is not Bunk, it's the study of physical fact. Religion is foolhardy nonsense.

[JodyThePig]

No one on earth has ever willed a vehicle into space and landed on the moon, or launched a satellite using religion.

No one has ever successfully completely an appendectomy surgery using a Koran and prayer.

God didn't invent the Atomic Bomb, Oppenheimer did.

Science is not Bunk, it's the study of physical fact. Religion is foolhardy nonsense.

Oh.

[His Daddy]

No one has ever successfully completely an appendectomy surgery using a Koran and prayer.

Not entirely true. There have been plenty of shiv/shanks made out of paper, and the odds are that at least one of them was from a Koran. So presuming one shanking may have hit an appendix...

[Orbitron]

How is this any different than claiming that the bible is true, or any other religion for that matter? Isn't it simply a matter of personal belief? But somehow you find this belief more distasteful than others?

Sorry, I'm just confused as to your extreme animosity towards this one belief that some people hold, animosity you seem to lack concerning other people's beliefs.

Because a biblical literalist doesnt try to dress up their belief as logic and science. And no biblical literalists have posted on this thread stating the Bible is fact. The only people posting are folks who think they're so clever and superior to them religious dummies who choose to believe. If a biblical literalist posted I'd roll my eyes and probably ignore them, or maybe say "wow, that's nutty".

And do you think saying "god is cruel" or "god allows bad things to happen" is really being insightful? Do you think religious people are unaware of that life can be cruel? That seems insulting to those who believe.

My animosity is toward those who think their belief is better than others, whether they're atheist or fundamental christian or militant muslem.

[Orbitron]

For someone who thinks they are above the sentiments being made in this thread, you certainly smack of smug and ridiculous.

And you talk real good.

Discussing this with you is like trying to teach pondscum to fix a wristwatch.

[His Daddy]

Proving that God exists is simple. Let's simply work backwards from us.

We are taught that God is all-knowing and all-powerful.
God created us.

This is illogical, because why would God have created us? An all-knowing and all-powerful God wouldn't get lonely, hence he wouldn't have needed to make us. The fact that we're here is proof that God isn't.

[Truth be known]

Proving that God exists is simple. Let's simply work backwards from us.

We are taught that God is all-knowing and all-powerful.
God created us.

This is illogical, because why would God have created us? An all-knowing and all-powerful God wouldn't get lonely, hence he wouldn't have needed to make us. The fact that we're here is proof that God isn't.

Just think about how Evangelical Christians justify their strict interpretation of the bible alongside the Science of today. They think we lived alongside the dinosaurs! Holy Shit! Just like Mormonism...their story is completely laughable, and many don't even really adhere to the whole story anymore now that it's been changed so many times...complete joke.