Iraqis lead final purge of Al-Qaeda Options

[benhamean]

I'm still trying to figure out what the average American has gained or will gain when/if it's over. Probably just higher taxes for infinity when China wants to get paid back.

Its all so awesome.
The Al Qeada level in Iraq is now almost nothing. Which is where it was when we invaded 5 years ago.
All at the cost of hundreds of billions of dollars (borrowed at interest) and thousands of lives.
Bargain!
Some are all excited about having military bases in Iraq long-term. Not the Iraqis, though.

The Taliban seems to be enjoying our concentration on Iraq, leaving them free to regroup and continue the war in Afghanistan...which has been going on for 2 years longer than Iraq, by the way...

I personally am not convinced that Iraq will remain stable, but even if it does-

What has this gained us really? Bush got to show he had balls, Rummy got to test his new plan, and ??? er um, ?

[woof.]

The net result of this is there are US bases protecting one of the most important tactical areas in the world and just a stones throw from the last two major Terrorist nations in Syria and Iran. Lives will be saved because of this and the advantages gained are huge. Money well spent and lives will be saved in the long run.

speculation. Who's lives are going to be saved? and how many?
and if they're not US, why do we give a flying fuck? How many died so that how many could be "saved". Is that acceptable? If not, why not? If so, are the lives lost in the process more or less valuable than the lives saved by the process? Because a lot of people have died so far... so when do we "break even" in lives saved versus lives lost?

How did we ever manage not having bases in that area before? Why does the US(specifically) need to protect it? I do believe you would rather use "strategic" instead of "tactical", but hey, maybe you don't.

Having US bases protecting a "tactical" (strategic) area that doesn't belong to us, never did, and was taken by force, is less than savory, wouldn't you admit? Thou shalt not covet thy neighbors goods, and all that, right? Not to mention that invading a soverign nation without provocation is against international law (yeah, the laws that we signed on to uphold, and were instrumental in drafting), not to mention the Nuremburg charter.

here's the bottom line- it all comes down to economics. If you want to argue that ultimately it benefits our economy somehow( although at this point, the US seems to have shot themselves in the foot economically with this move), I'd be inclined to listen to what you have to say, but the "money well spent", isn't, and the "lives saved" are not quantifiable or qualifiable, and the US isn't that benevolent. so once again (as usual), you appear to be full of shit.

[Mister Shhh]

I watched Three Kings last night.

[RI chick]

I still believe that by removing Saddam and doing it so poorly we:
1. started and perpetuate a crazy civil war that has decimated the country, it's infrastructure and it's people.
2. more importantly we invited Iran into the mix, the country that Saddam had successfully kept out of Iraq. Now Iran is a major threat, due only to our messing with the delicate Middle East equilibrium.

The country is still a complete mess and worse off than before we got all cowboy, started a war and alienated the entire muslim world. Now we are paying off different opposing militias to join the Iraqi military. Just wait until these differing militia groups go through their pecking order from within and go civil war within the Iraqi military......THAT will be a fun time.

The US is in debt beyond conprehension, and we are still spending billions.

The small amount of Al-Qaeda left in Iraq that has had a "final purge" is didly success. Al-Qaeda had regrouped to Pakistan and Afghanistan months ago.

I don't see the pros outweighing the cons yet, sorry.

This post has been edited by RI chick: Jul 7 2008, 12:50 PM

[Orbitron]

This is too little, too late, to ever call this a "victory". Great, there are now about the same amount of Al-Queda in Iraq as there was before we invaded. Woohoo. Go us!

This has gone worse than my, (or anyone's I suspect.), dimmest, most pessimistic projections.

Not convinced having bases there will lead to the US being safer, either militarily or economically. It certainly hasnt played out that way so far.

[benhamean]

This is too little, too late, to ever call this a "victory". Great, there are now about the same amount of Al-Queda in Iraq as there was before we invaded. Woohoo. Go us!

This has gone worse than my, (or anyone's I suspect.), dimmest, most pessimistic projections.

Not convinced having bases there will lead to the US being safer, either militarily or economically. It certainly hasnt played out that way so far.

Our PRESENCE and meddling is what has created the radical Muslim hatred we now enjoy, contrary to the ever potent They-Hate-Our-Freedom argument.

[lusting_kay]

after seeing just a few too many of these stories debunked the next day, I think I will reserve judgment for a week or so.

[lusting_kay]

Our PRESENCE and meddling is what has created the radical Muslim hatred we now enjoy, contrary to the ever potent They-Hate-Our-Freedom argument.

that is almost as simplistic as the they hate our freedom argument.

The taliban and resulting oppression of women and minorities would have existed even if we never set foot in Kuwait. Further, we would have been hated just by association with israel.

[mhaverty]

This is too little, too late, to ever call this a "victory". Great, there are now about the same amount of Al-Queda in Iraq as there was before we invaded. Woohoo. Go us!

This has gone worse than my, (or anyone's I suspect.), dimmest, most pessimistic projections.

Not convinced having bases there will lead to the US being safer, either militarily or economically. It certainly hasnt played out that way so far.

Yup those several thousand foreign fighters who met their maker in Iraq would have just been working at the chocolate factory these last few years. All that capital and resourses sent by Al Queda and other extremist groups to fund them would have been spent on whipped cream.

[benhamean]

that is almost as simplistic as the they hate our freedom argument.

The taliban and resulting oppression of women and minorities would have existed even if we never set foot in Kuwait. Further, we would have been hated just by association with israel.

Remember WHY Osama Bin Laden called for jihad against America?
Something to do with our military airfields (read: PRESENCE) in Saudi Arabia?

Remember WHY the 'Iranian Revolution' happened in the late 70's?
Something to do with the Shah (read- us FUCKING AROUND)?

There are governments oppressing the shit out of their people all over the fucking place. Do they hate US because of that, or is that just a dumb stretch?

[mhaverty]

that is almost as simplistic as the they hate our freedom argument.

The taliban and resulting oppression of women and minorities would have existed even if we never set foot in Kuwait. Further, we would have been hated just by association with israel.

No way man radicalization began on inauguration day 2001.

[mhaverty]

Remember WHY Osama Bin Laden called for jihad against America?
Something to do with our military airfields (read: PRESENCE) in Saudi Arabia?

Remember WHY the 'Iranian Revolution' happened in the late 70's?
Something to do with the Shah (read- us FUCKING AROUND)?

There are governments oppressing the shit out of their people all over the fucking place. Do they hate US because of that, or is that just a dumb stretch?

Why were the airfields there? To enforce the no fly zone.

They do hate the US for that. They hated us for building up and enabling people like Hussein. This perception is also fueld by secular govts. in the reigion as a hedge so the radicals do not turn on them. The Saudi Royals learned the hard way that this doesn't work out that well.

None of this is a zero sum game even though people who think like like you do try to frame it as such when it suits your points/arguments.

[jonah]

I watched Three Kings last night.

WHAT IS WRONG WITH MICHAEL JACKSON?

[The Balls]

Marie Colvin in Mosul
American and Iraqi forces are driving Al-Qaeda in Iraq out of its last redoubt in the north of the country in the culmination of one of the most spectacular victories of the war on terror.

After being forced from its strongholds in the west and centre of Iraq in the past two years, Al-Qaeda’s dwindling band of fighters has made a defiant “last stand” in the northern city of Mosul.

A huge operation to crush the 1,200 fighters who remained from a terrorist force once estimated at more than 12,000 began on May 10.

Operation Lion’s Roar, in which the Iraqi army combined forces with the Americans’ 3rd Armoured Cavalry Regiment, has already resulted in the death of Abu Khalaf, the Al-Qaeda leader, and the capture of more than 1,000 suspects.

The group has been reduced to hit-and-run attacks, including one that killed two off-duty policemen yesterday, and sporadic bombings aimed at killing large numbers of officials and civilians.

Last Friday I joined the 2nd Iraqi Division as it supported local police in a house-to-house search for one such bomb after intelligence pointed to a large explosion today.

Even in the district of Zanjali, previously a hotbed of the insurgency, it was possible to accompany an Iraqi colonel on foot through streets of breeze-block houses studded with bullet holes. Hundreds of houses were searched without resistance but no bomb was found, only 60kg of explosives.

American and Iraqi leaders believe that while it would be premature to write off Al-Qaeda in Iraq, the Sunni group has lost control of its last urban base in Mosul and its remnants have been largely driven into the countryside to the south.

Nouri al-Maliki, Iraq’s prime minister, who has also led a crackdown on the Shi’ite Mahdi Army in Basra and Baghdad in recent months, claimed yesterday that his government had “defeated” terrorism.

“They were intending to besiege Baghdad and control it,” Maliki said. “But thanks to the will of the tribes, security forces, army and all Iraqis, we defeated them.”

The number of foreign fighters coming over the border from Syria to bolster Al-Qaeda’s numbers is thought to have declined to as few as 20 a month, compared with 120 a month at its peak.

Brigadier General Abdullah Abdul, a senior Iraqi commander, said: “We’ve limited their movements with check-points. They are doing small attacks and trying big ones, but they’re mostly not succeeding.”

Major-General Mark Hertling, American commander in the north, said: “I think we’re at the irreversible point.”

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/worl...icle4276486.ece

[The Balls]

your problem here is assuming that any military in history has been able to "squash" a belief system or by winning hearts and minds.

The only thing we've done is created a nation full of people who will always hate us. 40 years later and the Vietnamese people still resent us.

Hell, I'll give Iranians more credit than Iraqis. At least there's a moderate level of reformers in Iran who are becoming increasingly westernized. But we should go attack them and strengthen the Iranian government's hand.

Those who think that 4 divisions of armor can win hearts and minds dies along with Westmoreland.

[mhaverty]

your problem here is assuming that any military in history has been able to "squash" a belief system or by winning hearts and minds.

The only thing we've done is created a nation full of people who will always hate us. 40 years later and the Vietnamese people still resent us.

Hell, I'll give Iranians more credit than Iraqis. At least there's a moderate level of reformers in Iran who are becoming increasingly westernized. But we should go attack them and strengthen the Iranian government's hand.

Those who think that 4 divisions of armor can win hearts and minds dies along with Westmoreland.

There are plenty of vietnamese who love and respect us. Some also resent us for giving up and leaving. Many vietnamese americans hate John Kerry. It isn't a universal across the board hatred as you state.

[benhamean]

Why were the airfields there? To enforce the no fly zone.

They do hate the US for that. They hated us for building up and enabling people like Hussein. This perception is also fueld by secular govts. in the reigion as a hedge so the radicals do not turn on them. The Saudi Royals learned the hard way that this doesn't work out that well.

None of this is a zero sum game even though people who think like like you do try to frame it as such when it suits your points/arguments.

Riddle me this, mathboy-
Does invading, occupying, and exploiting the natural resources of a muslim country (for the thinly disguised purpose of using it as a good spot for us on the 'chess board'), oh, and killing several thousand civilians while doing it- does this
1) reduce our enemies or
2) increase and inflame our enemies?

Zero sum, schmero sum. You act like a crusading tyranical Great Satan, you make more enemies than you kill...

[mhaverty]

Riddle me this, mathboy-
Does invading, occupying, and exploiting the natural resources of a muslim country (for the thinly disguised purpose of using it as a good spot for us on the 'chess board'), oh, and killing several thousand civilians while doing it- does this
1) reduce our enemies or
2) increase and inflame our enemies?

Zero sum, schmero sum. You act like a crusading tyranical Great Satan, you make more enemies than you kill...

The kurds in the north have been thriving in the new Iraq. As the rest of the country trends towards stabilization the citizens will see a much better life going foward than they did under Hussein.

[Apollo Creed]

The kurds in the north have been thriving in the new Iraq. As the rest of the country trends towards stabilization the citizens will see a much better life going foward than they did under Hussein.

Two major oversights are implicit here: 1) Iraq was stable before we invaded, and 2) the US government does not care about the welfare of the Kurds. The US government armed and supported the ethnic cleansing of Kurds in Turkey throughout the 90's and looked the other way when Turkey invaded the Kurds in northern Iraq earlier this year.

[ShempTheOtherStooge]

your problem here is assuming that any military in history has been able to "squash" a belief system or by winning hearts and minds.

The only thing we've done is created a nation full of people who will always hate us. 40 years later and the Vietnamese people still resent us.

Hell, I'll give Iranians more credit than Iraqis. At least there's a moderate level of reformers in Iran who are becoming increasingly westernized. But we should go attack them and strengthen the Iranian government's hand.

Those who think that 4 divisions of armor can win hearts and minds dies along with Westmoreland.

Squash a belief system? Let's see... How about the Nazis and teh belief in the rightness of the Aryan race? Or Japan with Hirohito as the 124th Emperor to rule from the Chrysanthemum Throne? Do you think Emperor as God was not a belief system?

The problem with this war is that it was fought in a politically correct manner that denied the military the ability to remove the willingness to fight from the opposition.

Find us an example of a war that was won without crushing the opposition into dust (except any war ever waged against the French.)

[stiggs]

Find us an example of a war that was won without crushing the opposition into dust (except any war ever waged against the French.)

The American Revolution?

Stiggs

[fish fanatic]

That's sick.

[fish fanatic]

Is a timetable still traitorous to suggest?

I don't know about traitorus, but even Obama seems to have gotten the memo that putting a time table on the Iraq mess is unrealisitic.

[ShempTheOtherStooge]

The American Revolution?

Stiggs

Between weather, time and victories in the field we kicked the shit out of the British and removed their will to fight and fund a war on foreign soil.

Try another one.

[stiggs]

Between weather, time and victories in the field we kicked the shit out of the British and removed their will to fight and fund a war on foreign soil.

Try another one.

Kicked the shit out of them? Actually, I think they just got bored.

Stiggs